mulhollandj
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| 08/12/2006 9:59 PM |
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I am trying to decide whether to home school my children or not. We have enrolled our daughter in kindergarten at a local school in the meantime. We recently received a letter from the principal encouraging those who might possibly qualify to sign up for reduced lunches because it gives the school more money.
I have also noticed this summer that schools are giving 'free' lunches. You don't have to do anything to qualify. Instead you can just show up and your kids can eat for 'free'. Anything they don't eat has to be thrown away and there is no sharing.
Ezra Taft Benson warned that socialism was just as dangerous to our personal freedoms as communism. J. Reuben Clark also talked strongly against socialism. He said that "We may first observe that communism and socialism-which we shall hereafter group together and dub Statism-cannot live with Christianity nor with any religion that postulates a Creator such as the Declaration of Independence recognizes. The slaves of Statism must konw no power, no authority, no source of blessing, no God, but the State...."
Ezra Taft Benson also said that "Let us never forget that today we are in the biggest battle ever staged. Our opponent is socialism-theWelfare State-and the penalty of failure is enslavement."
How many of us are slaves to the state? Why have we given the state the authority to forcibly take from one to give to another? Where did we get that right to give to the state? We need to free ourselves from this harsh master and regain the liberty that has been taken away.
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engineereeyore
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| 08/14/2006 11:49 AM |
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mulhollandj
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| 08/14/2006 12:44 PM |
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My problem is not welfare in general but government welfare. People have emergencies and need help. That it what family and then charity is for. David B. Haight said
It is significant to note that about this same time, when the Lord established his way of caring for those in need, the “world,” or government, introduced its form of dole assistance—a counterfeit alternative to the Lord’s way. In most instances, the world’s way dismissed the principle of individual work and family responsibility and adopted the philosophy that “the government will take care of our needs” or “the government owes us a living.” Individual and family initiative was supplanted by government handouts. The true spirit of love for our neighbor and concern for others as taught by the Savior had been generally ignored.
The rest of the talk can be found at
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1978.htm/ensign%20november%201978%20.htm/the%20stake%20presidents%20role%20in%20welfare%20services.htm
Marion G. Romney also says that
We must ever keep in mind that the First Presidency, in announcing the welfare program in the October 1936 conference, said:
“Our primary purpose was to set up, in so far as it might be possible, a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished, and independence, industry, thrift and self respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership.” (Conference Report, Oct. 1936, p. 3; italics added.)
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1976.htm/ensign%20may%201976.htm/church%20welfare%20services%20basic%20principles.htm\
What is the official position of the church? I haven't heard anything official other than this but I am still researching.
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engineereeyore
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| 08/14/2006 2:20 PM |
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mulhollandj
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| 08/14/2006 3:41 PM |
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First point is the church has said many negative things about gov welfare. It is Satan's counterfiet. It should be abolished. The government has no right to take our money. Church welfare was created to fight gov welfare.
Second point is the church has never said anything positive about gov welfare.
Third point is the church handbook doesn't say that it is OK it just says they shouldn't be taking from both.
And my conclusion is that it is wrong. Your conclusion seems to be that it is OK for a little while. The brethren have not said that their problem is really the way the government is running it. Their problem is that the government has no authority to run it and the results are catastrophic. I used to share your conclusion before I learned more about it. You view it as a type of a loan. By what authority though do you authorize the government to take my money and give it to you? We are not a democracy but a republic. The difference is we are ruled by law and not the majority.
By participating in government socialism you are promoting it. Is this socialism? If it is then we must stay far from it because Ezra Taft Benson warned us that socialism is as dangerous as communism when it comes to our personal liberties.
If you think that the government does have the right to redistribute wealth then I encourage you to join our Constitution study group we will be holding this fall so you can find out about the history of this government. And one last really good thing to read is http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html which is Davy Crockett vs Welfare.
It really amazes me that people can read so many thing that the brethren have said against it and they still think it is OK. |
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lenardburton
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| 08/14/2006 5:31 PM |
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I agree that this country is moving toward a socialist welfare state. I see many politicians such as Orin Hatch voted in with promises of how they can get Utah more federal money. I'm sick of seeing so many people bought off by the government. I have been reading "The Making of America" which is all about how we became a country and how our nation became so great. I have also heard Scott Bradley speak about the constitution and have seen more clearly how we are moving away from the great republic that our founding fathers have set up for us. It has been really amazing to me to read about how careful the founding fathers were with taxation and spending. When I contrast the careful and well debated taxation and lawmaking of the early years of America to the irresponsibility and waste of American government today, it saddens me. We are on a very slippery path and soon we will fall if we don't start fixing our problems. We as citizens should really read the constitution and learn what the proper role of government is. I must agree with you mulhollandj that it is not to redistribute wealth. Whether you are religious or not government has no right to take money or property away from one person in order to satisfy another, it must be given freely. If it is not given freely then it is a redistribution of weath. I once heard a story which showed it nicely. The girl was asked how she was doing at College. Her response was that she was getting straight As. She was then asked about her friend. She replied that her friend was failing all of her classes because all she did was party. Her father said well why don't we just average your grades and you can both pass with Cs. She of course thought this was a horrible idea as she worked hard for her As and didn't want to share with someone who wasn't trying. This is much the way of government welfare. I of course realize that not all people on welfare are lazy and unwilling to work. There are people who are trying to provide for their families and just can't do it by themselves. I agree that it is wrong that they should suffer but people should be giive on their own not be forced by taxation. Who draws the line on how much I should be required to give. Why not just give all the money to the government and let them decide what everyone should get. That would be fair right. Oh wait isn't that Communism. Why in this country do we seek to punish those who succeed? Why don't we allow those in a tough spot try to work it out themselves before giving them others hard earned money?
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engineereeyore
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| 08/14/2006 6:48 PM |
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Code101
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| 08/14/2006 6:50 PM |
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| Don't send your kids to these schools. More private schools seem to come out every year. Tell your rep. to allow tax cuts for those who use private schools! |
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lenardburton
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| 08/14/2006 8:58 PM |
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engineereeyore you said "As for the rest of your quote, the pure ignorance of the Constitutionalist party is there inability to understand the true glory of the Laws of this Land, including the Constitution. It was designed to be changed. You can't say that because something wasn't a law in the 1770's it can't be a law now. This is not only ignorant, but betrays the true meaning of the piece of paper you claim to base your beliefs on."
For your information, the constitution was written in 1787 not in the 1770s.
When the constitution was written it was written by men who prayed to God for help in writing the constitution. They were men who studied all types of past governments to try to see why they failed and what was good about them. They wrote the constitution giving as little power to the government as they could and keeping the federal government as small as they could. They wanted to establish a system of government to protect people's rights. Our government taking upon themselves the right to redistribute wealth is not something that the constitution granted them power to do. The constitution was not written to be changed or adapted, it was written to be the supreme law of the land. Yes it can be added to and expanded as has been done with ammendments but they principles layed out in the constitution are meant to remain the guiding principles for our nation. If we go against constitutional principles we are going against what our nation was founded on and what made this nation great. Redistribution of wealth goes against what the founding fathers built this nation on. They wanted to protect peoples life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. In our nation today we pull down those that are pursuing happiness by burdening them with higher taxes for those who "need" assistance. Again I understand that there are those who truely do need assistance but the government has no right to determine that my money should be taken and given to individuals it deems as needy. This is for people to give willingly not forcebly. |
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mulhollandj
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| 08/14/2006 9:10 PM |
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I really enjoy talking about this with you. I am glad that you are willing to listen to what I have to say and think about it. Here is my response.
First, what part of "a counterfeit alternative to the Lord’s way" did you not understand? Who is the master counterfeiter? Where does it say a program with good intentions that went wrong?
Second the quote you are referring to is Elder Haight just showing how effective the church system is. Read the first sentence. It never says he agrees with government welfare. You still don't have any sources supporting you. "He continued, “ ‘The government should help people help themselves.’ ” " The He refers to the representative. Is your aid from the government free or are you doing work for it?
Third, "The glory of the constitution comes in its ability to change with the times." Yes it is called an amendment. Have you seen an amendment authorizing welfare? No? The 10th amendment bans the federal government from being involved. It is not there. Do you really want me to start saying what the brethren have said about the Constitution? Read what Samuel Adams had to say about why welfare states fail and how it is unconstitutional. (The Life and Public Service of Samuel Adams vol 1:154) Or you can read about it in Making of America by Cleon Skousen. Also the church has cleared said how it feals about original intent. "The First Presidency acknowledged that wisdom when they gave us the guideline a few years ago of supporting political candidates “who are truly dedicated to the Constitution in the tradition of our Founding Fathers.” (Deseret News, November 2, 1964.)
Fourth,
“Our primary purpose was to set up, in so far as it might be possible, a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished, and independence, industry, thrift and self respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership.” (Conference Report, Oct. 1936, p. 3; italics added.) says nothing about the depression. The storehouses were set up for this purpose but not the church welfare system.
Fifth,
If I have taken any of my quotes out of context please list and correct me if you can.
Sixth,
Do you know how much you have paid inito the system for welfare and how much you have taken out? Are you sure that you have already paid in more specifically to social programs that you use? If you haven't then you are using somebody elses money and I don't think it was given voluntarily.
Seventh,
The people are the problem. While they are living off of the government they are slaves to the state and will not elect those who will do away with their 'entitlements'.
Eigth,
Socialism/Communism and Consecration are very different. Under Consecration you voluntarily give all to the church. You are then allotted a stewardship and you are responsible for that stewardship. You use what you need and want and give your excess back to the church. Things are not distributed equally. Under Socialism/Communism you are forced to surrender everything. You own nothing because the state owns everything. You have no real stewardship. People are given equally. This is not according to what they need and there is never enough. And if you aren't doing what the state wants, like you go to church, you lose what you have along with priviledges. Socialism/Communism is the counterfeit.
Ninth,
Of course you can justify anything you don't want to hear as being somebody's opinion. They have been said by multiple brethren and many in conference and there are many more quotes I haven't listed. It is up to you if you want to believe and follow them or not but as DC 130:20-21 says you will not receive the blessing until you follow the law. I have been there and I am so much better off now that I have had these shackles removed. Must you be commanded directly in all things? I challenge you to do what Elder Eyring spoke about in this last Conference. Read his experience where he learned to be as a child and submit. Take these quotes to your local priesthood leaders if you need to and ask them if it was just opinion or if this is something you need to live by. |
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engineereeyore
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| 08/14/2006 9:44 PM |
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mulhollandj
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| 08/15/2006 2:12 AM |
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First,
What did Elder Haight mean when he called it a "a counterfeit alternative to the Lord’s way"? Satan is all about 'helping' people with free money. He supports communism/socialism. They are his counterfeit.
Second,
Where does Elder Haight say that he agrees with government welfare? He only states that the church's is superior. By saying somebody thinks your way is better does not by default mean you think their way is OK or even necessary. Elder Haight is only saying that he agrees with the Representative that the church system is superior because it encourages people to work. Where does he say anything about the government system being OK or that it should exist?
Third,
I don't know where you are getting your primary purpose quote from because I googled part of it in quotes and found nothing. I googled part of mine and got a lot of hits. I copied and pasted it from the LDS church website.
Fourth,
I don't know what aid your on because
Wic - requires no work other than attending a nutrition class which is taught at a 2nd grade level
Food stamps - requires no work
Medicaid - requires no work
Subsidized rent - requires no work
Federal grants - kind of but not really because it just requires you to be in school
So unless you are counting filling out paperwork or being under a certain income as work I don't know what you are doing.
Fifth,
I never said how much you have paid into the system. A lot of your tax money goes for roads, defense, interest on the debt. I am speaking specifically of the programs you use.
Sixth,
"insure domestic tranquility" is only done through handouts? "general welfare"? Welfare meant a very different think back when the Constitution was founded. That does not mean steal from the rich and give to the poor. Study the history of our country. Read http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/ellis1.html about Davy Crockett. The purpose of the Constitution was never to ensure equality but was to protect property. I don't know which founding father you have been reading about but the ones I have read about steered clear of a welfare state. Where is the Constitution does it say that the government has the right to aid those in need or anything like unto it? The 10th amendment strictly limits the fed gov to that which is in the Constitution. I encourage you to join the Constitution club study group so you can learn about what the founding fathers meant.
Seventh,
If I had such a big problem with all 'welfare' then why would I donate generous amounts of my own time and money to help those less fortunate? No, I have a problem when the government steals my money. I say steal because there is no right under the Constitution for them to do it and I am forced to pay or I go to prison. God has created church welfare which lifts both the giver and the reciever up. Satan's plan forces you to give and keeps those receiving in poverty. Which plan are you living off of? Is it of God or of the devil? It must come from one. If it is of God then why have so many of God's prophets and apostles spoken against it and why has it hurt so many? "Because THEY have been given much THEY too must give, in order to support my life, the way I live"?
Eighth,
The difference between socialism/communism and consecration is much more than one is not perfect. One is a counterfeit, a fraud, and is of the devil.
Ninth,
Helping people help themselves is the correct way to do it. The government has no authority to do it though as stated previously. Those who want to help out people less fortunate are free to do so. This should be done willingly and in the way that people chose to instead of being forced by the government. I have seen what it has done to my own life and to lives of neighbors and friends. I have lived in a mixed income area and seen how it destroys familiies. Welfare states do not last long because it removes the incentive to work. Ezra Taft Benson explains this in "Freedom and free enterprise" which can be downloaded here in audio http://www.podfeed.net/podcast/Latter-day+Conservative/7300 along with many other great talks.
We are entitled to personal revelation but not when it contradicts what prophets and apostles have told us. Maybe a previous answer was what was best under your current knowledge but I hope you have learned a thing or two from the information I have presented. Try again with an open mind. |
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engineereeyore
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| 08/15/2006 6:51 AM |
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lenardburton
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| 08/15/2006 8:57 AM |
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engineereeyore you are wrong about the constitution and the way you present it. If you were to read more of what the founding fathers said about these principles you would understand the preamble better. You say We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." putting emphasis on insure domestic tranquility and promote the general welfare. Insure domestic tranquility is speaking of keeping peace at home between the states not in keeping all the people happy as this is impossible and not the place of government. To promote the general welfare does not mean to have a general welfare system but to do things that would help the nation as a whole. The founders had deep concern for the needing but believed it rested in the hands of the people not the government. Benjamin Franklin whote whole essays on the subject. He has said "I have long been of the opinion, that your legal provisions for the poor (in England) is a very great evil, operating as it does to the encouragment of idleness. We have followed your example, and begin now to see our error, and I hope, shall reform it. Samuel Adams states "The utopian schemes of leveling and a community of goods are as visionary and impracticable as those which vest all property in the crown and in our government, unconstitutionally." You say that you don't agree with how the government programs are run yet you continue to use them when a better way is there for you. mulhollandj may not state everything in a pleasing way to you and may sound arrogant but at least he is providing back up sorces. If you think he is taking things out of context and is speaking incorrect gospel principles perhaps you should go and read the talks given in the welfare sessions of conference. The church gives direction in conference not just through the church handbook of instruction. If you believe that government welfare is okay and you want to use it while it is here then do but you are adding to the problems of this country and making the people more dependant on the government. A good thing to read about welfare leading to government dependancy is "The Wild and Free Pigs of the Okefenokee Swamp"
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/790.html
Satan mixes good with bad in order to bring about his evil purposes. Is Satan capable of telling the truth sure if he can mix in a little lie and put credability to his statement. He leads people slowly down the path to wickedness not in a giant push. People can be deceived into doing something they think is good even when it is not. Could it be that Satan is presenting good in his plan in order to get governments to adopt his plan? Hinckley didn't say that it was okay for government wellfare but that they are taking on a worthiy undertaking. Helping the poor is a worthy undertaking but Robin hood tactics used are not. He also says it would be easier, much simpler and much better to follow the plan of the Lord. Why not do that? You are obviously LDS, why not use the church welfare system which incourages people to use their resources and work for what they recieve not "free" government handouts which promote laziness, idleness, and government dependancy. Is it just easier to talk to government welfare people about needing help then talking to your bishop?
A note to mulhollandj;
I see that you are really trying to provide engineereeyore with good facts and statements about the evil of the welfare system especially from an LDS perspective but it seems that he is not openminded about the subject and is set in his way of thinking. Any evidence you give he is pushing aside and bringing up very little to support his claims. It might be best to just leave him alone about it.
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engineereeyore
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| 08/15/2006 9:25 AM |
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lenardburton
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| 08/15/2006 11:00 AM |
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The better way is through the LDS church of which it seems you are a part. This encourages work for what you recieve and using resourses such as family for help before recieving help. The government is not going to reform the current system while people like you are using it and keep voting them in.
I do not wish to talk to someone who seems so uneducated about the principles of the LDS faith and the principles that the United States is founded on.
If you like your free money there are plenty of socialist welfare states in the world. If people in favor like you seem to be would do that we could bring the United States back to the great country it was in the past. We would elect leaders who would follow the laws of the land not bribe the voters with intrest programs paid for by hard working Americans.
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engineereeyore
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| 08/15/2006 11:25 AM |
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mulhollandj
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| 08/15/2006 11:44 AM |
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McConkie made his incorrect statement when he was a Seventy, not an apostle. Also try reading how other brethren have used the word counterfeit. I have never heard any of them say that this government was counterfeit. The scriptures clearly say that it was inspired of God. I do not know what you Seventy friend has told you but I do know what the prophets and apostles have said. Show him my comments and I would be happy to discuss it with him. I am more interested in doing the right than being right.
I believe that President Hinckley is only saying that he wishes them well on their foolish endeavors. Do you remember what happened when the people rejected God and Samuel and chose a king? God still loved the people and helped them as much as they would let him but they suffered greatly because of their poor choices. The same thing happened when the saints rejected prohibition. The church has not spoken on it for many years but prohibition was still the correct choice.
It really saddens me that you fail to see what I have seen. I cannot force it upon you. I guess that you don't understand the bigger picture and plan of Satan yet. I didn't either. I do know that Satan is trying to enslave us all. This is his plan because it uses force. I could keep going on with more and more quotes of the brethren but, like so many, you don't seem to want to accept it. Satan helps us justify our way out of everything. I have heard several people tell me that R rated movies are OK because it was just the prophets' opinions that they were bad and there was no official statement. This is all part of a bigger conspiracy of secret combinations and maybe one day you will realize what they have done and are doing to our nation.
I encourage you to be politically active and the learn about the Constitution and the original intent of the founders so you may be able to see. I have asked my priesthood leader about this topic and I will try to get back when I get a satisfactory answer because when I asked he wasn't sure. |
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engineereeyore
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| 08/15/2006 12:04 PM |
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sixline
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| 08/15/2006 12:18 PM |
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engineeringeeyore is one of the hardest workers I know. We work together. We take classes together. We've done projects together. To insinuate that because he is on welfare he is therefore lazy and indolent is an insult in the highest. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Everything I have read says that those who use welfare hurt the common good of the nation and drag us down because it promotes idleness. This is a bigoted statement. Have you met every last person on welfare? Are you familiar with why every last person is on welfare? Do you know their trials and sufferings? Do you know their hearts? No. Of course you don't. You are arguing for rules when you should be arguing for principle. I would venture to say that eeyore agrees whole-heartedly that no one should be able to waste away on free money. The principle is that people should be encouraged to work. So encourage them. Don't tell them they're following Satan's counterfeit. What kind of manipulative tactics are you into? I use government aid to go to school because my father is too poor to pay for it, but I don't qualify for the PEF aid from the Church because I live in a country where I can get an education through government aid.
Now why would the Church not allow me to use their help when government welfare is available? Are we going to say that government aid for school is not welfare? Obviously the Church doesn't think so horribly of welfare.
But then again, are we arguing situations and applications, such as the lazy deadbeat dad who doesn't do jack around the house but collect unemployment? Who decides who gets welfare and who doesn't? That's what we're arguing here, aren't we?
I get the feeling that you don't want to give money to people who you deem undeserving of it. What makes you so worthy? What puts you in a position to judge them and say they don't deserve it? Is it your money, or are you less than the dust of the earth? Can you say aught of yourselves?
Our government has flaws, tons of 'em. There's nothing wrong with applying yourselves to make things better but this is not religion. With government there's always more than one answer. When some people abuse the welfare system, I'm not going to grudge it against the rest who do it to get on their own two feet.
Joseph Fielding Smith (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 257, 240–41.) *AND* Jeffrey R. Holland (http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-401-21,00.html#17) said this:
Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive. . . . God does not look on sin with [the least degree of] allowance, but . . . the nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs.
Show compassion, mullhollandj. |
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